Comments on Martin Nordholts' GIMP Blog: Reactions on GIMP 2.7.0

TYVM you've slvoed all my problems

2011-08-09T05:16:13.392+02:00

TYVM you've slvoed all my problems

@JohanG* Seconded, @Martin I understand your logi...

2011-04-09T20:50:57.955+02:00

@JohanG*
Seconded,

@Martin
I understand your logic about layers etc. not saved in, say, JPEG, but I also suggest an analogy. THink of some text processing software. It is almost a standard for its UI to have "Save as..." menu option next to save. Suppose you make a nice page, with bold and italics, sophisticated layout, etc, and then you try to save it as plain text. Or maybe you type some Cjinese hieroglyohs and try to save your text in ISO-8859-1. The software will remind you of all nice things to be lost, like fonts, or non-Latin characters, etc. However, I am pretty sure it will not have that menu option called "Export" or "Overwrite".
I understand that image editing and text processing are two different types of activities, but you hopefully get my point :).

I am by no means a professional, but I think that ...

2010-11-13T20:19:26.514+01:00

I am by no means a professional, but I think that when working with layers you need to save it as XCF with the option to save a secondary file of your choosing which would be a greater flexibility. As I hate to save first to one format and then flatten it to save to another format. This way it would be quick and easy. Just my 2cents

There's really no logic in separating similar ...

2010-11-02T23:05:29.967+01:00

There's really no logic in separating similar functions as with 'save' and 'export' as GIMP-dev has done. Imo 'export' should be as in PS, either to 'non bitmap image formats' (eg. eps, pdf) or specialized export functions as PS's 'save for web'.

It all comes down to usability. Having different meny-option and dialogs just for different image formats makes no sense in that regard. I really liked being able to 'save as' just using the file suffix, that was an awesome function I'd like to see in more apps - and you discarded it, hehe...

And my background is (professionally) in PS since v. 1.x something, back in the early 90's, and GIMP since 4 years...

@ Martin Nordholts:- I agree with your logic on th...

2010-10-03T19:33:36.613+02:00

@ Martin Nordholts:-
I agree with your logic on the 'save/export' discussion, but the suggestion by 'philho' is a very good/efficient one. Everybody wins surely ^^-)

Ok, and what about CMYK? I think this would be a r...

2010-02-27T02:13:57.175+01:00

Ok, and what about CMYK? I think this would be a really important step to replace photoshop in production and print environments.

I would suggest a couple of improvements: 1.- A f...

2010-01-25T14:56:41.976+01:00

I would suggest a couple of improvements:

1.- A fast access key for 'save for web'
2.- A text tool compatible with psd's, for view font, size, style...

good job, keep weel, working hard.

I agree with philho, that 'Save' should an...

2009-11-23T17:03:42.908+01:00

I agree with philho, that 'Save' should analyse the buffer first and offer to 'overwrite' if is compatible (with an option to save as XCF).

In addition, could 'Overwrite' be put in a more prominent position next to 'Save'? Whether overwriting is a primary or secondary workflow, it is surely the primary or only GIMP task for many users.

A case to illustrate my remark above... http://for...

2009-11-07T19:53:27.213+01:00

A case to illustrate my remark above...
http://forum.deviantart.com/software/general/1380827/

Interesting exchange of views... For the record, I...

2009-11-06T21:44:37.137+01:00

Interesting exchange of views... For the record, I use Gimp 2.6 (and I like the evolution from .4) and don't know 2.7 and above...

"if the user is so stupid as to spend 50 hours working on a 500 layer master piece then saves as a JPG then that's THEIR fault in my book"
A bit harsh. In deviantART forums, I see lot of newbies in despair because they made such error... Saying "it's your fault, stupid" doesn't solve the problem.

I agree that sometime I just want to do a quick edit on a Jpeg, PNG or Gif image, and to hit Ctrl+S to save the change.
If I have to "export" the file, maybe it makes sense, but it is against lot of acquired workflows...
The "overwrite" button might be a solution. But might I try and propose an idea?
Why not analyze the buffer first? If it has only one layer, and it is in compatible format (still palletized for Gif, for example), etc., why not just do the save? If it has layers and other stuff, maybe a dialog should ask whether the user want to export to a flat format, or use a richer format (XCF of course).
Sorry if that's actually the currently chosen way.

Just a note on the mono-window mode: that's an excellent thing! Perhaps I am just clueless, but I am tired of having the edited image to go behind the layer dock when I hit Numerical+

hi! it's a Great article easy to download

I second that - keep the way that you have taken. ...

2009-10-24T19:41:18.271+02:00

I second that - keep the way that you have taken.

I understand "Save" as being safe for all what I have done. And so I want to keep my layers and stuff.

And learning an easy new way to overwrite a flat file should be doable - I can make a video about it. ;-)

Martin, Your taking Gimp in the right direction. I...

2009-10-15T18:59:40.439+02:00

Martin,
Your taking Gimp in the right direction. I spend many hours in Gimp editing images. Yes I could use CS4 but prefer Gimp as I started using it years ago. I love the new selection tool and the way it acts. Keep up the good work. And don't listen to people who use Corel!!!

If Gimp were an island, this might make sense, but...

2009-10-02T22:01:00.126+02:00

If Gimp were an island, this might make sense, but in the larger world, I think it relegates Gimp to a second class citizen. I'd like to see a poll showing what file formats people edit in Gimp.

I don't think many are asking for a high-end XCF editor. Maybe a high-end PSD editor. Definitely some nice JPG editors. Probably some nice TIF/RAW editors.

For me, Gimp will continue to be something I try out (now less frequently) before returning to Corel PhotoPaint/PSE/Paint.Net.

@Tobias the use case you give is served better jus...

2009-09-21T10:59:48.545+02:00

@Tobias
the use case you give is served better just by clicking the new overwrite button. In fact it is far faster (clickwise), with fewer mistakes to be made. A user need only learn this simple workflow once. On the other hand....

"Cropping an image, saving it, and then closing the app again can’t be a secondary use case"
You are arguing things that are already easy to do should be considered before things that are more complex and therefore a given user spends more time learning that task.

It seems to me you have not even questioned your basic assumptions.

Sorry if I’m late to the party. I haven’t seen Gim...

2009-09-20T21:40:11.873+02:00

Sorry if I’m late to the party. I haven’t seen Gimp 2.7 yet.

If I load a PNG image in Gimp 2.7, crop it and then press Ctrl-S. What will happen? Will it save back to PNG or will it open a dialog asking for a filename to save as XCF?

If it is the latter, then that’s is just broken. Cropping an image, saving it, and then closing the app again can’t be a secondary use case. It’s so fundamental! And there weren’t even any actions that introduced XCF only features.

What user would want to have an extra XCF in that use case?

The point of the single-window mode is to allow us...

2009-09-19T11:25:51.186+02:00

The point of the single-window mode is to allow users who don't like to manage windows do don't have to. With a windows-in-window interface that you seem to want that problem is not solved. In Peter's proposal you *can* compare images also in the single-window mode, so exactly what is the problem again?

I've just read Peter Sikking post. If I am no...

2009-09-19T09:58:41.532+02:00

I've just read Peter Sikking post.

If I am not wrong, you won't be allowed to have many WINDOWS with your images in single-window mode.
It just sucks.

People need single window interface like in Photoshop or Photo Paint or some other good program. Because it works.
There should be single window with tools and area with projects windows (so maximizing image window will fill this area). It's used in many programs where you need to compare something (c++ editors etc), because it works.
I can't believe that you can't understand it.
It looks to me that maybe you want to make something new - it's OK, but what's the price? Next weird GUI, with single window(good), but where you can't place 2 projects side by side. *slapface

Whether or not to consider a workflow secondary ha...

2009-09-18T07:09:07.552+02:00

Whether or not to consider a workflow secondary has nothing to do with popularity but all to do with our product vision. And feedback should not go to our bugtracker but to the gimp-developer mailing list.

Retouching a JPEG is a very popular workflow. Popu...

2009-09-17T21:45:05.698+02:00

Retouching a JPEG is a very popular workflow. Popular workflow should not be considered as secondary. The challenge for GIMP is not doing simple for people who knows but for people who don't know.

Aniway feedback is feedback and could be adressed here but if it stay like that issues are issues and they should be adressed to bugzilla.

Retouching a JPEG is a secondary workflow and thus...

2009-09-16T21:31:08.840+02:00

Retouching a JPEG is a secondary workflow and thus not optimized for. I think the 'Overwrite ...' item is pretty easy to discover given the error message when trying to save, but again, it's not a very big issue since that is not the primary workflow. At least "resaving" in JPEG is almost as simple as in 2.6 if you know how to do it.

Warnings about saving in JPG is not an elegant UI ...

2009-09-16T21:04:16.762+02:00

Warnings about saving in JPG is not an elegant UI solution, OK, but opening a JPEG file, retouching it and clicking on SAVE button without being able to save in JPEG is another UI problem. And please don't wait seriously for beginner to be aware of a OVERWRITE button below four entries of menu.

Yes, we are turning GIMP into an XCF editor. That ...

2009-09-16T13:23:59.129+02:00

Yes, we are turning GIMP into an XCF editor. That you don't want to use it as such is not an argument for not making GIMP an XCF editor. The GIMP product vision is to make GIMP into a high-end image editor, and you can't be high-end without layer support, and if you have layer support you can't consider images "saved" in e.g. PNG as saved. Having warnings about saving in JPG as we previously had is not an elegant UI solution.

When my post was made, single-window was planned for 2.10. After my post, there was a change in plans and now single-window is planned (and in progress) for 2.8.

If you haven't, which I suspect, I suggest that you read a book on interaction design. I found "About Face 3" by Alan Cooper to be a good eye opener on the subject.

No your basic argument remains deeply flawed, up u...

2009-09-16T09:42:08.340+02:00

No your basic argument remains deeply flawed, up until now GIMP has been an image editor and your turning it into an XCF editor. When I open a jpg or a png and do work on it then press save I want to save as a jpg or png I do not consider it an XCF composition.

Its clear your only intention is to bolster your personal format at the expense of making things very 'clunky' and it simply serves no point. You already had warnings about jpg only taking flat images when saving. If you were really only concerned about lost data then a simple help window popping up when you save as non-xcf informing you of the fact your losing the layer and extended information. Thats whats known as human-interface-design, making intuitive, sensible improvements. Not what you guys have done, which is not just overkill on a very minor issue but actively makes the interface less intuitive. I can only imagine the backlash from designers if something like photoshop started forcing every image to be in PSD.

Btw your own post says "are disappointed about us not doing a single-window mode for 2.8. But again, that will come in 2.10" and now you have just said your not moving to SDI, well which is it? I have very little faith that you will make it an option to switch between the two if you can't make something as simple as the save dialogue work in the way some of us have gotten used to it for over a decade.

So in your book GIMP should present inaccurate inf...

2009-09-16T07:15:34.864+02:00

So in your book GIMP should present inaccurate information (showing an XCF composition as saved when it is not) and then you call the users that trust this information stupid? Wow I'm glad you are not in charge of the future of the GIMP UI. You are right in that some old users are alienated with the new save+export, but not having a broken UI and fulfilling our product vision is more important than pleasing retrogressive old-timers. And no you did not get all your facts straight, you thought we would get rid of the multi-window interface which has never been an alternative.

I appreciate that you take the time to complain about this and discuss this with me, but to me you're completely off track, sorry.